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Scientologists Visit

A few days before a picket of Scientology (in memory of Lisa McPherson, a Scientologist who had died under Scientology "care"), two Scientologists were sent to "handle" me, to dissuade me from participating in the picket.

On the night of Tuesday, 25 February, 1997, around 8:00 PM, there was a knock on my apartment door. When I opened it, there were two people -- a man and a woman -- standing outside. They identified themselves as Scientologists, and asked if they could come in. As I was currently on my way somewhere, I asked if they could come back the next night. They looked unhappy, but they agreed to return Wednesday night at around the same time.

I invited a friend of mine (who was also a critic of Scientology) to be present. He sat in the parking lot, waiting for them. When they arrived (about an hour later than they said they would), they spent some time outside my door, talking. The other critic, "Bill Winfield" (not his real name), got out of his car, walked past them, and knocked on my door. When I opened it, he announced, "They're here," and walked in. The woman appeared both surprised and upset. I invited them in.

The woman, Bennetta Slaughter, introduced herself as Lisa McPherson's best friend; she was also her boss at AMC Publishing. The man with her introduced himself simply as John Carmichael. After they left, I discovered that, when writing or speaking to the media, he used the titles "Vice President of Scientology in New York" and "Director of Public Affairs, New York Org". I was also informed, by former members of Scientology, that his title within Scientology was "Director of Special Affairs, New York", which means that he was the head of the New York branch's intelligence and espionage division, the Office of Special Affairs. I found these facts fairly interesting, because I live in Tampa, Florida.

Before I could sit down, they milled about to choose where they wanted to sit. Carmichael took a chair at the end of the coffee table, and Bennetta took the corner of the sofa directly opposite him. As she sat down, she noticed that the arm of the sofa was broken, and said, "Oh, I can't sit here." I offered to sit there instead, but she refused -- it was then that I realized that they'd chosen those seats so that I'd have to sit between them; they probably hoped that I'd feel surrounded and intimidated. Fortunately, once one recognizes a psychological warfare tactic, it ceases to have an effect. It wasn't the only tactic they tried that night.

After exchanging pleasantries, I asked if I could record the conversation. Bennetta said yes. Carmichael looked unhappy, then asked if I'd mind if he recorded as well. I said sure, let's get 'em all out on the table. Fortunately, later in the conversation, Carmichael makes a reference to the tape recorders, so they cannot claim that the encounter was recorded without their knowledge.

   JL -- Jeff Lee (me)
   BW -- "Bill Winfield"
   BS -- Bennetta Slaughter
   JC -- John Carmichael

BS: Now, let me just tell you why I wanted to talk to you.

JL: All right.

BS: Now, I understand that you're planning a demonstration...

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: ...and that it's part of some thing to do with Lisa.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: And that's really why I'm here.  'Cause I'm here to talk to you
    about Lisa.

JL: Okay.

BS: And, like, I -- I don't really know what else to say to you except

JL: All right.

BS: And just ask you, like, what your -- I don't know, what your reason
    is, what your motive is; like, what are you trying to accomplish for
    her, and to talk to you as her friend, you know, somebody who was
    her best friend for many many years.  So that's kind -- that's why
    I'm here.

JL: Yeah.

BS: So...

JL: Well, from my viewpoint --

BS: Can I ask a question first?  Are you actually planning on being

JL: Probably.

BS: (pause)  Okay.  Okay.

JL: I still --

BS: (to "Bill") And you?  I'm sorry, what was your name again?

BW: Bill Winfield.

BS: Bill Winfield.  My name's Bennetta.  And were you planning on being
    there too, or --

BW: Maybe.

BS: I understand.

BW: [inaudible]

BS: [inaudible]

JL: From my viewpoint, Lisa was supposedly under care when she died.
    From what I've heard -- from other former Scientologists, whom I
    will admit may have their own skew on things -- they said it's not
    entirely uncommon; that such things have happened before.  If they
    have, then that's a problem.  Last year we picketed because of
    the harrassment of critics on the Internet; we wanted to do it
    again, and the death of Lisa McPherson -- we're not trying to
    capitalize on it, but it gave us a reason to do it.

BS: Okay.  Well, obviously you're open to talking to me, or you wouldn't
    have let me come into your home.

JL: Correct.

BS: You know, I don't make any bones about being a Scientologist, and
    I'm not here to try to, like, win you over as a Scientologist, or
    any of that.

JL: Right.

BS: What I am here to tell you is that it's very very very hard for me
    and probably another hundred really good friends to contemplate that
    occurring.  Because, first of all, you know, I think -- I was Lisa's
    very best friend.  Me and another girl who've known her for many
    many years.  And we can say unequivocally that not only was Lisa not
    planning on leaving the church, the church didn't harm Lisa.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: And that what's occurring, for whatever reason, has nothing to do
    with Lisa.  Whatsoever.  We know that unequivocally.  And the reason
    that we know that unequivocally is because, very frankly, Jeff,
    there are lies that are being told in the paper.  I can give you
    examples.  I'm not -- you know, it's like, whatever happens on this,
    the truth will come out.  Because obviously the church is interested
    in investigating this and handling this [inaudible].  Maggie asked
    me -- you know I called Maggie.
(Maggie Council, a friend of mine and fellow critic of Scientology.)
JL: Yes.

BS: Okay.  Maggie asked me, "Was she on the Introspection Rundown?"  She
    was not on the Introspection Rundown.  There's another thing.  You
    know, first of all, whatever anybody wants to believe it or not, you
    know, this -- this Dell Liebrich that's helping to push this?
(Scientology later admitted that Lisa McPherson was indeed on the Introspection Rundown, which is a Scientology "process" in which a member undergoing a "psychotic break" -- which includes wanting to leave Scientology -- is locked in a room and denied communication with anyone until he or she returns to a "proper" frame of mind.)
JL: Mm-hmm?

BS: Was Lisa's aunt.  Lisa didn't even like Dell.  Lisa spent holidays,
    vacations, worked with us every day, and her momma didn't know
    anything about this, and her momma sure didn't have anything to do
    with this.  Her momma and my momma are friends -- my mother's not a
    Scientologist.  You know, she's certainly not anti-Scientology, and
    she's asked several times to stand up on this issue.  And I don't
    want her drug into this either.  And my mother is a Presbyterian,
    she goes to church every Sunday, and she has asked -- heartfelt'ly --
    "Please, let me stand up."  And I will, if it continues.

JL: Mm-hmmm.

BS: Because she knew Lisa, and she says, "Look, I can fight.  I'm not a
    Scientologist."  Lisa wasn't leaving Scientology!  Fanny -- Lisa's
    mother -- is dead!  She's not even alive!  Fanny was terminally ill,
    and didn't have anything to do with it.  She never spoke out about
    this; she never said a word.  When she was terminally ill, she had
    to turn over her estate rights to her sister -- who has kept her
    stirred up and an alcoholic for years!  This is why Lisa didn't even
    care about ... Dell.   The aunt.  It's Dell Liebrich.  I don't know
    how much you've, like, read, or whatever.  You know, do you think
    Dell was gonna say anything about this?  Can I get lots of people who
    knew Lisa and spent vacations and birthdays and holidays with Lisa,
    she never heard -- Do you know, I didn't even know Del existed?  In
    twelve years, Lisa never mentioned her name.  Not once!
(Then how does she know that Lisa "didn't even like Dell"? How can she say that "Lisa didn't even care about" her, if she'd never heard of her before? Is she making it up, or has she been reading Lisa's confidential auditing folders?)
    She never got a birthday card from her, she never got a present from
    her, she never got Christmas presents from her -- she spent
    Christmas at my house; I know what she was.  You know?  This is --
    this isn't about Lisa, but I've -- what you're doing, it's like,
    you have the right to free speech; you do!  And I'd never take that
    away from you.  But to do this is to use her.  And to use her
    wrongly.  And -- it's just, I can't -- I can't tell you what to do,
    obviously --

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: -- but I can appeal to you with facts, and from what I know, and ask
    you, out of common decency, not to use her that way.
(A standard psychological warfare tactic: the implication is that if I disagree with her, then I am not decent.)
JL: Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions?

BS: I don't.  Okay.

JL: Okay.  You said she wasn't on the Introspection Rundown.

BS: That's right.

JL: But, by Brian Anderson's admission, by Attorney Abelson's admission,
    she was in a room -- Abelson said at one point she was beating her
    fists on the wall -- if she wasn't on the Introspection Rundown, why
    was she stuck in a room?

BS: She wasn't "stuck in a room"; there are rooms called "cabañas" --
    you know what a cabaña is?

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: There are nice big cabañas in the hotel; she wasn't "stuck in a
    room".  She was distraught; she was emotional.  I'm not gonna tell
    you she wasn't, you know, but the main thing that was -- was being
    done was to try to give her the time, the space, the care, the rest
    to snap out of it.  You can't, you know -- I don't know how much you
    do or don't know about Scientology, and I'm not, like, trying to
    sell it to you here.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: But auditing is a process by which somebody has to be able to
    participate in it, and -- and from some sort of logical viewpoint,
    and -- and with cooperation, you know?  Somebody's distraught, not
    sleeping well or not eating well, or -- you know, whatever, you
    can't participate in auditing, and it's not what's going to happen.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: You know, that's just the pure simplistic truth of it, and -- you
    know, it's like I realize you probably don't want to read tons and
    tons of material, but that is what has to happen.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: You know, it's like -- the truth of the matter is, the first thing
    that has to happen with an emotional person, is that they have to be
    rested and calm and able to talk and, you know, participate in
    what's happening, and get better, and -- I mean, I -- I gotta tell
    you, I've been a Scientologist for many many many many years, and
    I know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people.  And the amount
    of people helped by it are tremendous.  And I'm not seeing the kind
    of things in all of the different organizations that I've been in,
    that are being -- that are being quote-unquote "said" here happened.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: You know?  I've been in and out of Flag a million times.  I have
    been in L.A.  I've been in Dallas.  I've been in New York.  I've
    been in many many many of the organizations; these things don't
    occur!  You know?  And very frankly, if I thought you were really
    willing to look, I'd take you on a tour from the top to the bottom.
    And I would --

JL: Okay.

BS: Are you really willing to look for it?

JL: I'm really willing to look.  And I --

BS: And not as just the -- the blatant critic who's there to destroy,
    but to look for yourself?

JL: If I didn't have an open mind, I wouldn't have let you into my
    apartment.  I'd like --

BS: Now, I will take --

JL: I'd like --

BS: I will take --

JL: I'll write up a transcript of this, and put it on my Web page, your
    words exactly.

BS: I will take you on a tour from the top to the bottom in every single
    building.  Now, obviously, I can't take you into an auditing room
    where there's somebody in session --

JL: Understandable.

BS: -- because it's private.

JL: Yes.

BS: But I can introduce you to person after person who's receiving
    counseling -- right there in the waiting room!  You can talk to them
    all you want.  I'll take you to course rooms; if you want to look,
    I'll show you.

JC: Well --

JL: Okay.

JC: I -- I think we're going to have to talk to people -- she'll -- talk
    to those people --
(Notice how, whenever Bennetta begins to make promises, or stray too far from the task at hand -- dissuading me from participating in the picket -- Carmichael reins her back in.)
JL: Sure.

JC: -- who are [unintelligible] first.  Stuff like that.

BS: All right.

JC: (raising voice) Listen, can we -- ah, can we talk --

JL: Sure.

JC: You know, I don't want -- I don't want to make this into a game.
    Can we turn off the recorders and just talk person to person here?

JL: Do you plan on saying something you don't want recorded?

JC: No, no, I just want to talk, like, man to man, person to person.
(Notice the phrase "man to man". Carmichael uses this phrase, and "as a man", on a number of occasions. As with Bennetta's appeal to "common decency", this is an appeal to my masculinity. Carmichael's use of these phrases is intended to prey on any potential insecurities I might have in this area.)
JL: We can't do that with those on?  I'd prefer to have it recorded,
    so that nobody -- neither one of us -- can say, "Well, this person
    said that," and it didn't really happen.

JC: Well, we have -- we have witnesses here.

JL: But that's verbatim.  If I wanted to say what happens, and I get
    something wrong, you know... I don't want to get something wrong.

BW: If anything, for accuracy.

JC: (pause) Fair enough.

JL: I'm sorry, I didnt' get your name?

JC: John Carmichael. (pause as I write it down) Fair enough.  Anyway,
    as she said, it's not really so much about Scientology, it's about a

JL: Yeah.

JC: ...that a lot of Scientologists care about.  I don't really want to
    see her...

BS: I don't want to see her used.

JC: ...don't want to see her name used, don't want to see her --

JL: I don't want her to be used, either.  But -- what happened?  I
    mean, staph infections don't just [clap] all of a sudden, in one
    day, hit a person.

JC: But they do!  But they do!  Jim Henson did -- Jim Henson died of a
    staph infection, remember that?  Shoot, [snap] he was in the
    hospital, and six hours later he was dead.

JL: But I also remember that he was getting ill over a period of time
    before he ever went to the hospital.
(Actually, Jim Henson died of galloping pneumonia, a respiratory problem caused by Streptococcus pyogenes. Not a strain of Staphylococcus, and not all that suddenly.)
BS: Can I tell you something?  I personally have experienced this.

JL: Okay.

BS: Years ago, when I lived in California, I was fine.  An hour later,
    after getting home, I got hit [snap] just like this!

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: And I was just overwhelmingly sick.  When I -- when I finally
    thought, "There's something really wrong here," and went to the
    hospital, they told me, "Your chances are not good."

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: "Very very doubtful at this point."  That was only hours.  All I
    did was wait until my husband took my daughter to school.  Twelve
    days with massive massive massive do-- doses of antibiotics.  I have
    to differ with you there; that's why I, I know.

JL: Did it--

BS: I personally --

JL: Did it--

BS: -- and they told me I w--
(Notice that both Bennetta and Carmichael frequently interrupt me; Carmichael, especially, frequently breaks in as soon as I start to speak, and simply repeats what he's just said. I was later told that this is a Scientology technique called "driving up the Tone Arm", and was intended to get me furious. The only effect it had at the time, however, was to give me the strong impression that he was an utter ass.)
JL: Did it cause days' worth of dehydration in you?

BS: (pause) Okay, well, that -- well, let's talk about that for a
    second, I -- y-you're talking about something that we don't really
    know there.  Yes, something's being said, but it's highly highly
    suppositional.  I -- what I can tell you is that the church is
    investigating it just as hard as everybody else is; why do you think
    they asked for the records?  You know?  Why do you think they asked
    for access to it?  There is one thing you have to look at on that.
    They left anything about the infection off.  Anything whatsoever!
    And then later said, "Well, it was a mistake to release them."  And
    then reversed that!  And then said something like, "Well, it
    doesn't do any good to draw blood from a dead person."
(Well, no, it doesn't do any good to draw blood from a person who's been dead for over a year, which was the actual context of what Joan Wood, the Medical Examiner, was talking about.)
    Well, all the work they do is on dead people, including drawing
    the blood and all the blood tests.  There are inconsistencies there, if
    you look.  I don't think anybody can answer at this point
    what actually occurred, or what really was going on.

JL: Okay.

BS: You know?  I -- I can tell you nobody starved her,
    or, or -- she went without any liquids, or anything like that,
(This was an incorrect statement. The autopsy on Lisa McPherson revealed that there was no food in her stomach or duodenum, and the vitreous gases indicated severe dehydration. The chemical changes in the eyeballs aren't affected by a staph infection, either.)
    and that she did in fact discuss her care, and I can tell you from
    personal experience, she didn't want doctors, and I know for a fact
    that she would refuse one, time and time again.  And the reason that
    I know that, is some years ago -- n-not only just from my personal
    experience, but I'll tell you how stubborn she was on it; some
    years ago she had a b-- severe back problem.  So severe that she
    could-- ended up, couldn't move!  She was flat on her back.  It
    took me six days of her being flat on her back -- I had to stay at
    home with her, miss work with her, help her up and down, I had to
    hold her in the shower -- that's how bad her back was.  It took me
    six days, in spite of all that, to convince her to see a back
    doctor.  Now that's how stubborn she was with regards to doctors,
    and how much she refuses them.  And d'you know, if her momma were
    here, her momma could attest to that.  'Cause her mother badgered
    her constantly, too!

JL: Okay.

BS: It wasn't her mother who took care of her.  It was me who stayed
    at home from work with her.  But nonetheless, that's how stubborn
    she was with regards to it.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: So... you know, I don't know what to tell you, except it has to be
    investigated, and it will be, you know?  It -- the very truth of
    the matter is that if the records are available, and experts can get
    at it -- and there is, there's something here, no question there's
    an agenda somewhere.  You know?  And it --

JL: Mm-hmm.  On both sides.

BS: Well, ours is certainly to get at the truth, too.  And yes, you
    know, we have a set of tenants [sic] and a set of beliefs.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: But it doesn't ex- -- include anything except the evolution of an
    ability -- of the ability of the person!  That's it!  You know?
    I'm not a mindless robot, I'm not an idiot.

JL: I didn't accuse you of being one.

BS: Of course not.  But if you look at what's being said, you know,
    you'd think that somebody would have to be; it's like, am I stupid
    enough to subject myself to day after day, or year after year to
    a place that's going to do that to me?  Do I actually look like
    somebody who's that idiotic, that I'm going to place myself in
    harm's way like that?  I'm going to -- you know, it's like it's a
    little -- if you just even look at it from a logical viewpoint,
    there are hundreds of thousands of people who come here every year,
    and go to F- -- the Fort Harrison.  Why would they do that, if they
    thought that -- and they all go home!  If they felt they couldn't
    go home, or that they were going to be subjected to some sort of
    bodily harm -- why would they do that?  There are hundreds of
    thousands of Scientologists in -- all over the place in this
    country, and others that come here.  That's silly!  Even if you
    just look at it from that viewpoint!  You know?  And as far as the
    Internet stuff, if that's what your beef is about, you know, there's
    like, just read all the documentation.  Why take a one-sided
    viewpoint?  Look at everything!  Investigate for yourself.  The
    church doesn't have a beef with people who -- you know, if you want
    to express something, express it.  But you know what?  It has to be
    under legal, um, tenants [sic], or however you would say that.  It
    can't -- you can't use copyrighted documents, private documents,
    trade secrets, or anything like that.  Now.  I have to tell you,
    I'm not an expert on all the things that you may have as a
    disagreement.  I -- I'm not even here necessarily to debate them.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: What I'm here to do is to say to you, don't use my friend as a
    poster child -- because that's what Maggie said she was!
(Maggie Council says: what I actually said was something like, "I'm sorry that you lost your best friend, and that you perceive she is being used as some sort of poster child. It must be very difficult for you." No wonder Carmichael wanted to turn the tape recorders off; it's hard to twist someone's words when he has a verbatim record of what was said!)
    My friend is not a poster child!  I can't handle that!  I just
    can't.  I'm asking you to be decent about it.  You have an
    objection, have your objection.  I can't say I like your
    objection; I can't even say I want you to have the objection!  I'd
    love for you not to have the objection.  It's not about Lisa if
    you do that.  You're being used by the Establishment if you do that.

JL: [laughs (Ooooo, I'm being Used By The Establishment!)]

BS: I can't see you being the type that would agree to that easily, or
    being a tool.  [very quietly]  Don't do it.

JL: I'll consider what you're saying.  I do make that promise

BS: Mm-hmm.

JL: May I ask some more questions about Lisa?

BS: Yeah; I can't promise you I can answer 'em, but...

JL: Okay.  Do you know if she was taking auditing or courses while she
    was at the Fort Harrison, during those seventeen days?

BS: [moving head from side to side]

JL: She wasn't?

BS: [moving head from side to side]

JL: Because... according to the newspaper --

JC: Ahh-

JL: -- five days before she died, she was charged for the...  Expansion
    of Havingness tapes.

BS: Uh, I don't... just because she got tapes doesn't mean that she

JL: That's true.

BS: ...taking a course, or getting audited, you know?

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: It's like, I have lots of tapes that I haven't done the course for,
    or --

JC: Yeah --

BS: -- you know, if somebody's trying to rest, listening to tapes
    wouldn't be an unusual activity.  You know?

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: Like, it just wouldn't be.  So... she had lots and lots of tapes.

JC: I think she got those -- I was looking at that stuff; I think she
    bought those from the Freewinds, and just gotten invoiced for
    them lately.

JL: Hm.

JC: You know, the -- that -- you know, the thing here really is, is just
    to look at it: [snap] You didn't know Lisa.  I mean, that's just --
    I'm just -- just straight on, man to man -- [snap] didn't know Lisa.
(Notice that Carmichael [and to some extent, Bennetta] tend to snap their fingers or clap their hands whenever they express an idea which they wish to enforce. This is a common hypnotist's trick, used to reinforce suggestions.)
JL: That's true, I didn't.

JC: Ah...  The people who th- -- who were -- Jeff Jacobsen didn't know
    Lisa.  None of these people really knew Lisa at all, or cared about
    Lisa when she was alive.
(Okay, Mr. Vice President of Scientology in New York, did you really know Lisa? From Bennetta, perhaps this argument would have carried some weight, but from you? Pot, kettle, black.)
JL: Mm-hmm?

JC: They don't care about her now.  Jeff Jacobsen couldn't -- cares not
    at all about Lisa!  He does not!  And you know it!  In your heart,
    you know it.

JL: Do you know Jeff Jacobsen?

JC: I know Jeff Jacobsen, I've met Jeff, it's Jeff Jacobsen.  But I know
    for sure that he doesn't know Lisa.  He didn't know Lisa, he didn't
    care about her, and he does not care about her know.  I know that
    from my whole heart, in my whole soul.  And I ask you, as a man,
    not to spit on somebody's grave.  Not to -- not to drag her -- her
    name a- -- use her as a -- as a -- as a "poster child", as a tool
    for somebody's problem with the church.
(Note the "as a man" tactic again.)
JL: Hmmm.

JC: It's just not right.

JL: Okay, it's not my intention to spit on her grave, or to use her
    as a tool.

JC: I -- I have --

BS: But when you forward a line that you really don't know the truth on,
    and that you're assuming the ill of, you do.  You feed right into
    it.  You don't know the truth yet.

JL: No, I don't know the truth --

BS: Right.

JL: -- and that's part of the reason why we're doing this.  Because the
    truth doesn't seem forthcoming.

BS: Definitely --

JC: There are no --

JL: There are a lot of unanswered questions.

BS: Do you know what?  Let me tell you something.  There were thirteen
    people interviewed.  Thirteen!  You know how I know that?  'Cause I
    was one of the ones that was interviewed.  It's not true there
    wasn't cooperation.  There was lots of cooperation.  Nobody was
    unwilling.  Nobody at all.  There was tremendous amounts of
    cooperation.  This ain't my -- you know, my attorney was told in
    May by the investigating detective, "I don't see anything here."
(What she doesn't mention is that the people who were actually supposed to be taking care of Lisa had been flown out of the country immediately after her death, and the "Church" told police that they had no idea where they were.)
JL: Hmm.

BS: That was in May of last year.  That's not a truth, that there was
    not cooperation.

JL: I don't recall mentioning cooperation.

BS: (pause)  What -- you know, you say, "There's not data forthcoming."
    If you look at the definition of "forthcoming" with data, that means
    cooperation and giving information.

JL: That's one way to look at it, yes.

BS: Well?  You know, it's pretty hard to do hours and hours and hours of
    interviews with thirteen people, and -- and not believe that there
    wasn't plenty of cooperation and data forthcoming; they interviewed
    everybody that was there.  And to say that the church is not
    cooperating, or data is not forthcoming, how 'bout if we look at the
    Medical Examiner's data and not being forthcoming?  They make
    allegations, but the- -- and they say things that you can't get out
    of the report...  I read the report word for word!  I cleared all
    of my words.  I consulted a doctor and said, "What does this mean?
    What does this mean?"

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: I -- I don't know how they got some of that stuff out of there!

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: And yet at the same time, w-will they l- -- have they -- we say,
    you know, the church says, "What about this infection?"  "Oh, it
    doesn't have any effect."  There's a -- there's an expert in -- in
    infectious diseases that says it does indeed have an effect, and
    that -- well, it was a mistake.  Ok-- it was released early.
    Oka- -- okay, well, take it into consideration!  Well, you know
    [clap] doesn't matter.

JL: Works both ways, though.  I mean --

BS: [laughs]

JL: -- I have also consulted with a doctor, and he said that there is
    no staph infection that he knows of that causes... hematomas and
    contusions.  Which is what the staph infection --

BS: Well --

JL: -- is blamed for in Lisa's case.

BS: It -- it -- let me tell you something.  I can differ, based upon
    personal experience.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: So, I'm real hard to co- -- to convince of that, you know?  I know
    what I went through.  And I know what I looked like.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: So y- -- I mean, what do you say?  Except that if you ask a -- a
    medical professional who's an expert in infectious diseases, he'll
    say something different.  Did you ask somebody who was an expert
    in infectious diseases?
(I have done so since this conversation, and have been told that while there are staph infections that will cause bruising, the bruises are always accompanied by "massive tissue degeneration", which was not indicated on Lisa McPherson's autopsy report.)
JL: Not infectious diseases, but I've gotta admit, if the staph
    infection was that... sudden, how would it have produced the old

BS: Well, I -- I can't answer you there.  You know?  It's like --

JL: Neither could --

BS: Let me tell you something.  Girls -- you know, we can bruise.
    Things can be there.

JL: Yeah?

BS: Things can get blown out of proportion.

JL: Hmmm.

BS: You know, all I'm saying to you is, there is a lot of discrepancies
    and that's fine, but to arbitrarily decide the church is the one?
    You know, just because of your other disagreements with them?

JL: Mm-hmm?

BS: You don't know anything about this, really, except what you've read
    in the papers.

JL: True.

BS: Okay, do you believe everything you read in the papers?

JL: No, I don't.

BS: Have you ever been subjected to anything, or seen anything in the
    papers that you went, "I know that's not correct"?

JL: Yes.

BS: Okay, so...

JL: For example, the Lisa McPherson stories: the church says, "The
    Media --"

BS: I'm --

JL: "-- are lying --"
(...and the police are lying, and the Medical Examiner's office is lying, and Lisa's family is lying...)
BS: Okay, wait.  Let --

JL: No -- wait, wait, wait.

BS: Let's go over to the other side for a minute.

JL: "Everybody's lying except the church."  That's kind of hard to
    believe, this... massive world-wide conspiracy --

BS: I didn't say that.

JL: I don't --

BS: I don't say that.

JL: If there's a --

BS: I said there's a situation here, on this situation.

JL: Yah.

BS: This isn't a world-wide situation, this is a situation right here.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: That's all.  I d- -- I don't want to go world-wide.  I can't speak
    for world-wide.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: I can only speak for what I know, for right there.  You know?  I --
    I'm not trying to be ugly on it, I'm just trying to say, I can't
    get into a debate with you about everything, 'cause I don't know
    about everything.  The only reason I know about this is because I
    have personal experience and 'cause I know.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: You know?  And I can tell you, if -- if you even just look at the
    newspapers, all I'm saying to you is, if you get off of
    Scientology for a second, get off of what you know there, are you
    trying to tell me that you haven't seen things on other
    circumstances, other situations, other things in the paper where you
    go, "Well, I -- I -- I know that can't be right"?  That's written by
    a reporter.

JL: Yeah.

BS: Okay.  So all I'm saying to you is, don't you think it could be
    possible here, too?  D- -- W- -- how --

JL: It's possible.  But don't you think it could be possible that
    they're telling the truth?

BS: No.

JL: Okay, that's where we differ.

BS: Well, but that's because I knew her.  And I knew what was going on.

JL: Were you there during the seventeen days, at her side?

BS: You know that I wasn't.

JL: No, I don't know.  That's why I asked.

BS: No.

JL: So --

BS: But, Jeff.

JL: Mm-hmm?

BS: I have been in the Fort Harrison.  I have been a Scientologist for
    many years; what you're talking about is completely contrary to our
    beliefs, to our practices, to what we are doing, and to the whole
    reason for Scientology in the first place.  It's about raising
    awareness and ability.  [inaudible]

JL: I understand that.

BS: Well, if -- if you do, we wouldn't even be debating that.

JL: No, I understand what Scientology's aims are.  But are there never
    any Scientologists that go against the policies and ethics codes and

BS: Well, I -- I think you could find a particular for that on any
    situation.  But that doesn't make it the church, and it doesn't make
    it right to pick at the church, using Lisa.  It doesn't.  Could I
    have a drink of water?

JL: Sure.  I also have Snapple and Surge, if you prefer.

BS: No, actually; just about all I drink is milk or water.

JL: Okay.  (to Carmichael) Would you like anything, sir?

JC: No thank you.

BS: (to "Bill")  What's your scene, Bill?

BW: I'm sorry?

BS: What's your... scene, your interest or field?  You're... Net, also?
    Are you interested in that?

BW: [inaudible]

BS: Well, I don't know how you could possibly think that Lisa can serve
    your purposes on ... free speech or the Net.  I just don't.  You
    know?  You're using somebody.  Unfairly.  To try to forge some
    purpose that has nothing to do with Lisa.  Or the church.  Don't do
    this.  It's not right.

JL: I said I will consider it.

JC: Well... [sigh]  I guess we can't expect much more than that.

BS: Will you talk to me again, before -- if -- with whatever your
    decision is, before you show up for it?

JL: Sure.

BS: (to "Bill")  And you?  Will you back out of this?  And not come?

BW: I don't know.

BS: Okay.

BW: As Jeff said, I must [inaudible] come to a conclusion, just take
    what we already have, you know, seen and read and heard; and what
    we will continue to see, read and hear, and weigh it all.

JC: [inaudible muttering]  But please -- but please, think of this.
    This is not something -- this is not something Jeff thought of.
    I know, you were involved in the last one too.  But this is not
    something that you thought up.  It's not something that a friend
    of Lisa McPherson's thought up, because they cared about her.  It's
    a thing that -- it's an artificial... it's -- it's hypocrisy; it --
    it's ... it's not right.  It's not right to talk about a dead
    person.  If you really think about a dead person, do you really
    consider a real live person?  To -- to drag her out and say that's
    the reason, "because you care", when that's not the reason.  It's
    just hyp- -- hypocri- -- hypocritical.  [sigh]  [clap]  Anyway.

JL: Anyway.

JC: Good.

JL: Just a -- a couple quick things.  Do you know Ildiko Cannovas or
    Laura Arrunada?

BS: [moving head from side to side]

JC: Who are they?

JL: They are... people who were with Lisa when she was taken to the
    hospital, apparently.

BS: I might know Ildiko Cannovas.  You know, I know an awfully [sic] lot
    of people; we've been very active in the community; I'm active in
    charity work, I'm -- are you familiar with Winter Wonderland?

JL: Yes.

BS: I'm ... the chairman of Winter Wonderland, so ... sometimes I know
    people who, you know...

JL: Lisa had just gone Clear, hadn't she?

BS: [moving head up and down]

JL: Is is ... usual ... for someone who'd just gone Clear to suddenly
    take off their clothes and walk naked down the street?

BS: There's no question that she was emotionally distraught.  What's
    usual?  Let me tell you something.  Lisa did not have a great young
    life.  You know?  I -- I don't know how much I want to talk to you
    [laughs] about [laughs] Lisa's early life, 'cause I'm not sure...

JC: I -- I -- I --

BS: Let me just tell you this.

JC: Ap- -- All right, I'm just -- I'm just saying --

BS: That's fine.

JC: We're not in the prov- -- in the presence of somebody who's...

BS: I understand.

JC: All right.  Cool.

BS: (pause) All I can tell you is that she was emotional.  For what
    reason, or what exactly, you know, I can't get under her -- under
    what was happening, you know?  Think Lisa [inaudible]

JL: Yeah.  I thought... getting rid of your reactive mind was supposed
    to take care of that.

BS: Well, it's not the end of... [gesturing upwards] the auditing
    processes, or anything else.

JL: Yeah.

BS: Just a step on it.  You know?  It's like, that's all I can tell you.
    You know?  Like, if you're looking for some definitive answer, you
    know, I suggest you study a lot deeper.

JL: Okay.

BS: You know?

JL: Well, that's why I'm asking: because I don't know.

BS: Your best source of data [clap] is the book Dianetics: The Modern
    Science of Mental Health.

JL: Mm-hmm.

BS: You should read it.  But if you want to know something about it,
    about the subject, go to the bookstore.  Pick up that book.  You
    know?  I -- I would assume, if you can do this, and if you can do
    this, and if you can do the other things that you can do, you're
    probably pretty illiterate -- I -- I'm not trying to be insulting,
    but are you pretty literate?

JL: I would say so.

BS: Okay.  So then pick up the book.

JL: Okay.

BS: It is a difficult book; it's not something you're gonna read
    overnight, unless you're engin- -- you know, kind of an engineering
    sort -- the reason I say that is because my husband managed to read
    it in a couple of days, but -- read it!
(Actually, I did read it, in college. I found it highly unscientific, found Hubbard's methodologies to be rather doubtful, and felt that it was nothing more than an amalgam of buzzwords and unsupported hypotheses.)
    Find out for yourself how to -- how -- what is it?  What is he
    saying, you know?  Understand it!  So, y- -- you want to be critical
    of something?  Read the actual subject of it.  Read the beginning of
    it.  And then look for yourself, you know?  It's like, you're trying
    to look based upon third-hand data sometimes, and based upon
    snippets of things, and things pulled out of -- out of the middle of
    something.  As opposed to looking at it from, you know, the bottom
    up.  Or from actually understanding the principles or the basics
    first.  You know?  And like, how does that fit with that?  It's --
    that's kind of like saying, "Well, you know, this freaking car
    doesn't work," and yet he doesn't have the distributor cap on it,
    and you don't even know enough to know the distributor cap goes on
    there before anything's gonna work.  You know?  And it's like
    saying, "Well, it's no good," because the distributor cap isn't on
    there, without realizing it's, like, "Oh, I was supposed to put the
    distributor cap on it."  Now, that may be a real poor example, but
    at the same time, there are some basics, and to understand how
    things really work, you'd have to know the basics, and you don't.
    You're going based upon third-hand data, other people's opinions,
    you know, things pulled from here and there, and trying to make
    sense out of something, instead of going, "Okay, what are the basics
    of this subject?  Let me study the basics of this subject and see
    what agreements or disagreements I might have?"  You haven't done
    that.  You know, now you may think you're an expert, Jeff may think
    you're -- a -- you -- that -- he's an expert.  [clap]  And -- I
    don't know how anybody could consider themselves a -- an expert
    in anything without knowing the basics; would you try to pass
    yourself off as an engineer without knowing the basics of
    engineering, just because you can do some mechanical drawings?

JL: No, but --

BS: Well?

JL: -- I don't bill myself as an expert in Scientology.

BS: Well, [snap] before you get too critical, maybe you should look at
    the basics.  There's five basic books that you could look up -- pick
    up in any bookstore.  Maybe you should read 'em!  Then decide just
    how much you disagree with the subject!  You know, or just how --
    maybe you should talk to some real live Scientologists besides me,
    and ask 'em, "Well, what's it done for you?  Why do you think it's
    so great?  W- -- what -- where were you in life?"

JL: Would they be allowed to talk to somebody who's at least PTS Type C,
    and probably Declared SP?

JC: [snorts]

BS: Why would you want to?  That's not a Scientologist!  A Scientologist
    is somebody like me, who uses the technology to improve their
    environment and the environment of others around them!  It --
    that's a Scientologist!  I'm a Scientologist!

JL: Yeah --

BS: That's what I am!  That's what my friends are!  That's what the
    people who go to the church are, not an SP!  [clap]

JL: That's not --

JC: He's talking a- -- he's talking about if -- he's bullbaiting --

JL: No, could they talk to me?  No, I'm saying --

BS: You're telling me you're Declared?

JL: No, I said --

BS: Okay.

JL: -- I'm at least PTS Type C, someone --

BS: And what is --

JL: -- who's been attacking Scientology, and -- since I've been on the
    Internet --

JC: [snorts]

JL: -- I've heard that "it's full of bona fide SP's."  Okay?
(That statement came from the Scientologists-only mailing list, TNX-L (Theta News eXchange List), which was leaked to the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology in 1995.)
BS: What's full of bona fide SP's?

JL: All --

JC: [indecipherable]

BS: Oh, what you're saying to me is, would somebody actually be
    allowed --

JL: -- be allowed to talk to me, because I've read in the policies that
    in the case of a PTS or SP, you're supposed to just cut
    communication unless they're -- you're trying to "handle" them.

JC: Jeff, Jeff, let me answer your question.  This really doesn't have
    anything to do with Lisa.  This doesn't have any- -- this -- this
    has to do with Scientology.  You want to talk about Scientology,
    that's fine --

JL: She suggested --

JC: This feel- --

JL: -- that I do something; I just asked a question, based on things
    that I've read --

JC: I understand.  She came
(Side of tape ends. Before I was able to change it, they attempted to discount what I was saying because "it came from third parties". I objected that I had read these policies right out of the green volumes. That didn't seem to sit very well with them. Then we talked about minor things -- Star Trek, costumes, wouldn't it be nice if we could just talk person-to-person and all that. Bennetta said something about "but I'm getting off the subject." What, wasn't she allowed to talk to me as a human being rather than as an SP to be handled? Or was she not supposed to deviate from the script? They went back to trying to convince me to not attend the picket.)
JC: ... All I want to say is, ah, hypocrisy is a bad thing.  Using
    somebody's memory is a bad thing.  I ask you not to do it.

JL: And I will think about it.  I promised that, and I will make good
    on it.

BS: Okay.

JC: [snap] [frustrated sigh]  'Keydoke!

BS: So, shall I -- did you want me to send you some stuff on the
    Internet thing?

JL: Sure.

BS: 'Kay.  How do you want me to get it to you?

JL: Um, if it's in electronic format, then emailing it to me is fine.

BS: I -- I read it in papers, so --

JL: Well, you have my address, so I guess you can mail it here.
(She never did.)
BS: Okay.

JL: You said you wanted me to call you and talk to you; could I get
    your number?

BS: Okay.  [phone number]

JL: Okay.

JC: [unintelligible]

JL: Thank you for coming.

BS: Thank you for listening to me, and thanks for, uh, talking to me.
    Thanks, Jeff.

JL: Thank you.

BS: Can I tell the cat goodbye, too?

JL: Sure.

BS: [giggles]

JL: Is there any --

BS: [talks baby-talk to cat]  Yeah.  Okay, thanks, guys.

JL: Have a good evening.

JC: Good night!

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